Resource distribution discussion

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Resource distribution discussion

Post  DumbMarine on Sun Sep 30, 2012 11:03 pm

I'd like to get a discussion going on the resources and how they're distributed.

I feel like, while they're a fairly good system as is, there could be more strategic choice involved in them. In every game I've played, the resource that needs to be mined is the one we don't have, and the only way to get it is to hunt for it and hope that asteroid field you're at has what you want (except for Kermiculite, obviously). That's partly to do with the upgrade costs (You need all 4 resources for the two eco upgrades) but that can be a topic for another thread. I really like the way Kerm is mined, but the other resources are just ... its a hide and seek game for miners and nothing more. This isn't bad, per se, but I feel like it could be better.

Here is an example resource distribution scheme to show what I'm getting at:

Veld: Small asteroid fields (>8 rocks) are 100% Veldite, large asteroid fields (8+ rocks) are 75% Veldite.
Chal: Large asteroid fields are 25% Chalcorium. Large asteroid fields don't spawn near edges of the map.
Pyro: Every asteroid field spawns with one bonus Pyromantite asteroid, even the Kerm fields that spawn.
Kerm: As is now, fast moving asteroids and fields spawn as special events.

Obviously this would be somewhat unbalanced with existing stuff, it's just an example to illustrate what I'm suggesting. There would be some more thought/strategy behind resource management beyond "we need whatever resource we don't have". Mining pyro means moving around a lot, and it'll have to be rationed. Going for chal can be dangerous, if the opponent is also doing that there will be plenty of skirmishes. Veld is the whatever resource. Kerm's the wild card (as it is now, sorta).

I'd like to know what other people think on the topic, if I'm way off or if I'm missing something, or if this is something that would improve the game.

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Re: Resource distribution discussion

Post  Lady-Natalya on Mon Oct 01, 2012 12:07 am

I don't know, I kinda like the way it is now. Makes the Mass Replicator an important buy.
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Re: Resource distribution discussion

Post  DumbMarine on Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:02 pm

This makes the mass replicator even more of an important buy though. In the example I gave, you can get pyro without having to be nomadic, and you can get chal in a more safe way. As it is now, the mass replicator only corrects for a mining team that neglects to mine what the team needs.

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Re: Resource distribution discussion

Post  Lady-Natalya on Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:59 pm

I mean sometimes there will be a situation where one side of the map is resource-poor for a specific colour of the minerals, like maybe (because it's random) you'll spawn with hardly any blue near your BC and you have trouble finding any for a while. That makes the mass replicator necessary, and it happens quite frequently.
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Re: Resource distribution discussion

Post  DumbMarine on Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:51 pm

This isn't something I've seen, and I try to pay close attention to it in pub games Neutral. Would you happen to have a replay? I'd like to get on the same page. I do see quite often situations where one side has a ton more asteroids than the other, but the resources are fairly even, shortages in resources occur when someone spends those resources on (sometimes silly) upgrades.

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Re: Resource distribution discussion

Post  Siretu on Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:01 am

Okay, first up: The mass replicator. I've seen it used rather often in pub games. It usually starts out with maxing the fusion core, turning off most non-vital systems to get the most power possible. This causes a pretty big economic boost which can result in an easy victory. I feel like mass replicator already has a decent role.

Mass replicator is not only a way to correct miner's fault of not mining the correct mineral. Combined with fusion core upgrades, it's a good economic boost. There's also a late-game aspect to it. I've won games we should've lost. One battle went bad and we couldn't afford repair kits and hull repair but due to the mass replicator, we barely survived.

Now for the mineral gathering. I agree completely with what you've said. We've been discussing this for over a year, but there's always been other stuff to do. The reason that I haven't implemented anything like it yet is because it can completely change the game in a good or bad way. I don't have any good ideas on how it should work(what minerals are where) but if I get some good suggestions on how it should work, I'll consider implementing it. What you suggested could be a good basis, but it still feel kind of boring and it would require a lot of rebalancing of the pyromanite costs since there's now a lot less pyromanite asteroids on the map.
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Re: Resource distribution discussion

Post  DumbMarine on Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:14 pm

It's not my intention to derail this into a discussion on the mass replicator. I mispoke earlier, I didn't mean to say the rep is useless, it's insane with powerdocking, but it isn't really relevent in this case.

My feelings are that each resource needs to have a distinguished role. IMO a team should be able to decide before the game which resources they want to focus on, much in the same way that teams can decide beforehand who is going to fly the miners/wraith, whether or not to rush, who is on power, etc. Randomness can still play a role for sure.

I see Veldite working as a sort of 'base material' that everything needs, everything on the con terminal except for yamato needs it, and most research needs it, so it's kinda that already. Veldite could be a very common resource, something that you always can use more of. It's a resource that I want to be able to tell a newbie "fly in any direction, and never stop mining it" and they'll be productive, instead of having to get them to mine the fast moving asteroids (a skill taken for granted). Thusly, that stuff should be everywhere. That's why, in the example given, I had Veldite be like 80% of all rocks generated.

I see Kermiculite as good as it is, something rare that powers higher end stuff. Kinda like vespene gas for SC2, you need it eventually, but when and how much depends on what you're going for. I think it's kinda weird as is right now because refining upgrade needs kerm-- discussion for another thread though. Otherwise, it's good, I don't want to mess with it.

I'm not sure how to classify Chal and Pyro, Chal is almost as important as Veld in varying quantities. It's way less important if you're only going for BC upgrades, but very important if you want max upgraded miners/destroyers and more ships. I think it's location should be deliberate, its something you shouldn't 'accidently' mine. Mid seems kinda cheesy of a location though, that's where Kerm usually spawns anyway.

Pyro's not in a lot of upgrades, but it's in the most important late-game ones. It feels like something that shares a niche with Kerm, but not something that you should have to fight over to get but rather something to stockpile-- you literally can't threaten the enemy BC lategame without missiles or broadsides and engine boost. I can't think of anything solid for this, been brainstorming having alternate ways to acquire it, such as the BC just collecting it over time automatically, or having it be mined from something other than asteroids (like singularities?), or having asteroids of it flying around like Kerm, or having to unlock tech that lets you refine it from Veldite.

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Re: Resource distribution discussion

Post  Siretu on Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:19 am

Just as you, I've thought about ways to make the different asteroids spawn differently, but also without luck. It's not as easy as one would think. I still think you're right, but we have to find a good implementation.

As for the different mineral types: I'm not sure if you know, but the different mineral types have roles that I try to follow. You got Veldite and Kermiculite right(Base material and high-end stuff). Pyromanite is mostly for weapons and engines while Chalcorium is mostly for Shields and energy. I try to think of that when I set the prices, although I might've mispriced some stuff.
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Re: Resource distribution discussion

Post  DestinyAtlantis on Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:05 pm

If you have environmental effects, then you can set for certain asteroids/higher quality asteroids to be spawned there, like if you have nebula, then Chalcoricum may be found near/inside nebula, Kerm could be spawned near a Black Hole/Giant rocky planet/the asteroid belt(rings) of such planet/black hole(instead of just spawning in the middle or the planet/black hole itself is always in the middle or something like that.
You can find Veldite pretty much everywhere(like iron in real space or something like that)(maybe even on planets if you implement planets(without the whole landing/entering the atmosphere)).
As for Pyro, maybe in belts/rings around volcanic planets/moons.

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Re: Resource distribution discussion

Post  DumbMarine on Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:32 pm

I noticed Pyro was used in weapons (especially ships that have weapons) but I never caught on with Chal, it's in a lot of stuff is all I noticed.

I like the nebula idea a lot regardless of what happens to resources Very Happy.

I see Chal as a sort of tactical resource, the upgrades you get with it give advantages to your small ships and skirmishes, and they give you more small ships, but it doesn't help so much in a strategic sense-- 700 HP miners don't bring the enemy BC's shields down. On the flip side, Pyro is more of a strategic resource, the upgrades here are strategic, they're game enders. Based on that I think Pyro should be more of a resource that acquiring is easy, but getting it in large quantities is slow, where you have to ration it, whereas Chal can be more of a conventional resource that you find within nebulas or whatever.

Low pyro levels mean having to decide between engine boost and broadsides and missiles, or at least, in my mind thats what I want it to be, in reality it'll probably mean pub games will last much longer as people have a tendency to be passive with the BC until everything is upgraded.

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