Buff Chomper Please!

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Buff Chomper Please!

Post  PotatoLoRD on Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:26 pm

I for one LOVE controlling the chomper. It's a fun ship to use, but right now I feel that it isn't as useful as it could be. I'll make pros and cons:

Pros

  • VERY fast mining time
  • more efficient while mining large clusters of asteroids than using a miner


Cons
  • You have to buy it (which takes away from other upgrades)
  • Very slow
  • Has to dock to return minerals
  • Very bad at escaping compared to miners(no boosting ability)
  • No upgrades for it (unlike miner)

Now I'm not saying that these cons are necessarily wrong, but I feel that this ship has so much more potential. If you want to keep it as a ship that needs to stay near the BC, that's fine. But I would like it if this ship had its own upgrades (like the miner) to make a strategy revolving around them to work in certain situations.

I personally think they would be a lot more viable if they had one of the following:
  • Return cargo (with perhaps a longer cooldown than the miner)
  • A turboboost ability that requires energy(could be researched)
  • Increased maximum speed that drains energy

But again, whatever you want the unit to be good at, just make it more of that.
As I said before, an easy way to do this would be in the form of upgrades. Every other ship has upgrades available except this one, which makes me sad. Sad

Perhaps also have an upgrade that reduces the cooldown of the actual chomping and the one that has the EMP icon? (I forget the name of it). That alone might increase its viability, but I can't be sure.

Thanks for taking the time to read this post! I really like Cruiser Command, thank you for your hard work in designing and maintaining this map!

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Re: Buff Chomper Please!

Post  Red-Rocket on Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:35 pm

Ya the chomper needs to be buffed, however, it is indeed supposed to be a big lumbering ship that is slow and cumbersome to use. however, i think that it should have a much bigger buff in health so that it is hard to take down as it is supposedly very big and tough as it deals with smashing into astroids and has a massive cargo hold, the hull upgrade should go in increments of 100 for the chomper so that it could go up to 1K health, the chomper should be protected, that is how chompers work they dont escape, you protect a big and juicy feild and let a chomper munch away at it while you protect it from enemies, it is not meant to go out on its own and explore, thats what miners are for. It does need a buff but in the area of it having much more health would be awesome. In upgrades for chomper we could have a seperate hull upgrade that will only upgrade the chomper and maby increese the *munch* *munch* range and the power of the pull.
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Re: Buff Chomper Please!

Post  PotatoLoRD on Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:52 pm

However, one of the problems with the chomper is knowing when you are supposed to get it. You already start with all 3 miners available, and most of the time it is a better to use miners than to lug over your BC to protect and mine efficiently with the chompers, unless there is some way to make them viable whilst far away from the BC. It needs some way to reduce the time it takes to return minerals, either through a speed buff or a return cargo ability. Alternatively, it would be cool if you could do a mid-space transport from a chomper to a miner, and have the miners carry it back.

I think that your ideas on upgrades are good, though.

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Re: Buff Chomper Please!

Post  DumbMarine on Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:56 pm

More than half of the cons you listed go away if the chomper stays near the battlecruiser. And keep in mind the huge cargo hold means the chomper can hold like 10 shields and still chomp just fine.

The problem with the chomper is people buy it and treat it like an upgraded miner, when it's not. The real problem is that it's a mid-game ship when you shouldn't need money anymore when the mid-game hits, you should have most of the upgrades done and a sizeable bank. Neither of those are problems that are solved by buffing the chomper unfortunately.

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Re: Buff Chomper Please!

Post  PotatoLoRD on Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:35 am

I agree that most of the cons should stay there. However, this unit still is extremely limited compared to the default miner.

I just find its use extremely limited. You have to 1) get your navigator to stop the ship near an asteroid field and 2) buy the chomper 3) mine it out before your navigator decides to leave again, in which case you can barely keep up with the ship. It actually takes quite a while depending on how spread the asteroids are.

Now that I have thought it over more, I think the best buffs would be to 1) give this ship upgrades 2) make the cooldown for the chomper's abilities shorter or nonexistent and 3) increase the top speed a tad while keeping acceleration the same. Or even 2 out of 3 would make me happy.

@dumbMarine, you still need minerals in the mid to late game. You can use them for missiles and ships like minelayers and destroyers. Getting a mineral bank is extremely important at all stages of the game, and getting chompers out is extremely rewarding when ships get destroyed and need rebuilding. There is no such thing as too many minerals!

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Re: Buff Chomper Please!

Post  Racism Minerbane on Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:21 am

Chomper needs some revamp, perhaps it doesn't need to stand still to eat ships / asteroids so its mobility is less trashy.

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Re: Buff Chomper Please!

Post  PotatoLoRD on Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:00 pm

Racism Minerbane wrote:Chomper needs some revamp, perhaps it doesn't need to stand still to eat ships / asteroids so its mobility is less trashy.

I don't know...I don't think that would really help considering the gravity-like ability is much better in most circumstances. I guess it would be a little better for mining groups of 1 or 2 asteroids, but it wouldn't really help all that much.

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Re: Buff Chomper Please!

Post  LordDragon on Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:53 pm

Reduced cooldown of chomping ability would be good - reducing/negating cooldown of magnetic pull ability would make it a small-ship killer beyond what any may believe. Keep the magnetic where it is, unless the reduction is slight.

All in all, it is a ship meant to be escorted by the BC. It provides alternative strategies, and a dedicated crew can have nav/weapons/power manned while one chomps and another 2 take wraith/vette. I don't prefer this strategy personally, but it's there and viable.

Some buff? Good - great idea. They are vastly underused, and often become a waste for newer players who don't know the finer points of CC. Ultra buff? Bad idea - it could quickly become something which performs roles outside of chomping minerals.
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Re: Buff Chomper Please!

Post  Red-Rocket on Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:39 pm

it should have its own upgrades that will increase the power of magnetic pull and increase the range of the *munch* *munch* ability and maby do increments of 100 whenever you upgrade the ships hull. It should reletivly stay the same but you can tech into it if you want as a viable direction instead of completely buffing the chomper in the begining where we might face balancing issues early game.
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Re: Buff Chomper Please!

Post  PotatoLoRD on Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:07 pm

What about this?

  • "Chomping" asteroid cooldown is no longer effective
  • Upgrade small ship hull now gives + 100 HP to Chomper per upgrade
  • Chomper now has its own upgrade page, including 2 upgrades
  • Gravitic Pulse - increases AoE of Magnetic Pull by 75% (could be scaled back if necessary)
  • Core Overdrive - reduces the cooldown of the Magnetic Pull ability, but cannot chomp for another 2 seconds after (to keep it from combat use)

I think these would be reasonable.

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Re: Buff Chomper Please!

Post  DumbMarine on Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:27 pm

One idea mentioned was giving the chomper a grappling hook/tractor ability to use against asteroids and ships. You shoot a projectile, and if it hits, both the thing you hit and the chomper get pulled toward each other. You could use this to move between asteroids better as well as defend yourself. This change could come with changing the chomper from a one-hit kill to something that does a lot of damage, like 500. It would still one-hit asteroids, but a wraith with shields and full hull upgrades would take 3 chomps to eat.

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Re: Buff Chomper Please!

Post  Red-Rocket on Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:35 pm

The pull should only work on all but a destroyer and BC and maby minelayer as it is a spellcaster and pretty much messes with peoples minds and create a minelayer strong v chomper situation where minelayers are more viable mid game and i do agree with the 500 dmg to a ship (Except destroyers and BCs (not including minelayers here) )
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Re: Buff Chomper Please!

Post  Racism Minerbane on Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:57 pm

I changed my mind, a hook skillshot that drags the chomper at whatever it hits seems way cooler make that happen.

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Re: Buff Chomper Please!

Post  Siretu on Sun Feb 24, 2013 4:49 am

I do read all posts on this forum. So don't worry, I'm hearing your concerns and as DumbMarine said, we talked about a grappling hook.

I also moved this thread to Cruiser Command Balance Discussion.
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Re: Buff Chomper Please!

Post  DumbMarine on Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:40 am

PotatoLoRD wrote:@dumbMarine, you still need minerals in the mid to late game. You can use them for missiles and ships like minelayers and destroyers. Getting a mineral bank is extremely important at all stages of the game, and getting chompers out is extremely rewarding when ships get destroyed and need rebuilding. There is no such thing as too many minerals!

Since this is a balance discussion now I will respond to this. There is a big problem currently (and for a long time) regarding the pacing of the game. You've likely experienced this, where you spend 35 minutes mining and then instantly lose when the enemy BC blows your BC up before you get a chance to get back and dock. It feels weird and is probably very frustrating. A lot of people lose sight of the fact that the point of the game is to kill the enemy BC, not mine every last mineral on the map. The 'get broadsides and attack the enemy BC at 10 minutes' strategy is making a killing right now.

This isn't strictly a problem with the chomper, it's just as much of a problem with people in miners, but the issue with the chomper is that it requires this kind of strategy in order to be useful. You can't get it early game without sacrificing early game tech. If the BC runs off the chomper loses it's advantage at mining and becomes extremely vulnerable to attack. If the BC stays behind it's not doing any damage (it has the most firepower in the game its kinda important you use the firepower by midgame/lategame) and it's at risk of being attacked at long range by destroyers or the enemy BC. As long as this is the case, the chomper will remain a late-game trap to buy.

I think buffing the chomper is still a good idea, but the real problem is go kill the enemy already.

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Re: Buff Chomper Please!

Post  Racism Minerbane on Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:21 pm

Its where your putting your minerals, if you max out mining lazor and ship engine your going to be an easy target for anyone that builds weapons. Minerals that could be spent on a chomper could score you a bunch of rockets that you can gg the enemy team with.

If your scoring a chomper your a sitting target and you can't escape. If the argument is your BC has to baby you then it probably won't be baby sitting your other miners because it would be ineffective to have them mining the same rocks your chomper can instantly eat.

The chomper is a big nooby trap, needs more offensive capabilities because at the moment I can only laugh when I see one. They are so slow you can probably dive them even with enemy BC protection.

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Re: Buff Chomper Please!

Post  Corinthian on Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:08 pm

Siretu

Thank you reading and responding to comments.

Chompers are now a viable mining vessel.
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Re: Buff Chomper Please!

Post  Siretu on Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:55 pm

That's nice to hear. I am still considering adding the grappling hook thingie because it feels like a nice idea. However, it'll have to wait for a while.
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Re: Buff Chomper Please!

Post  Tempest on Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:32 am

Not even sure if it needs the hook, i like the strategy and coordination behind it needing an escort. The buffs it has recieved make it capable of retreat and defending its self if the upgrading player desires :p A chomper should be near the bc to make drops, the bc should be near the chomper to defend, those two together make for a refreshing bit of teamwork. The hook would make the chomper more independent in a bad way and also would seem not very sci fi ish unlike every other ship in my predictions of it Surprised having its own little tractor beam to suck in distant asteroids and small ships would be nice, but with reflex you should be able to full throttle out of it. or push them away a little and hop into your escorting bc Surprised the bc should be there its part of the whole make a drop and go mine some more concept, the hooks ehhh its awesome but with the buffs it has recieved i wouldnt want to push things o.o id fly that ship now, its great.

ooo make the tractor beam slowly drain acceleration from the targeted ship requiring not only a turn around but acceleration that would be sweet. that mixed with its pulse to suck you in further, thats scary stuff right there. i wouldnt take them lightly anymore :p
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Re: Buff Chomper Please!

Post  Red-Rocket on Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:59 pm

its because after the ability of upgrading your lazers and kinetics you can very quickly destroy the enemy BC while defenses have received no extra benifits besides hull upgrades and starting hull health but unprotected hull can burn through quite quickly as of the moment
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Re: Buff Chomper Please!

Post  DumbMarine on Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:24 am

Even if the chomper had the grappling hook you should still escort it, because it can't return minerals on its own.

I don't like the chomper being mostly defenseless with no escape mechanism. Escort by the BC is one thing, reliance is another. This would allow good pilots to threaten careless attackers with it's chomp ability, rather than relying on them flying too close. Plus, it would help the chomper eat up sparse asteroid fields.

Miners have no reliance, with upgrades they are very efficient at mining, and with a cloak they are nigh unfindable. There needs to be more opportunity cost to using a miner mid and late game.

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Re: Buff Chomper Please!

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